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  #121  
Old 05-03-13, 01:10 PM
Colours Colours is offline
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I am very thankful we do not live in an at risk area of Hendra, its a horrible very scary thing.

I have thought about what I would do if I were still in the area, or any area with a risk of contracting hendra, and I honestly think that the risk to life, both human and of my equine family far outweighs the very small risk of any fertility issues with breeding stock. Looking at historical data of very similar vaccines, I think the risk of there being complications is very small, and that it is simply a matter of time before it is declared safe. As with everything these days, it is more likely a legal liability issue, and the need to show duty of care via extensive research and having that data available to support the safety, rather than the scientists actually not knowing if its going to be safe or not.

I know everybody has a different risk appetite, but for me risk vs benefit in this situation, its not a hard choice, I would vaccinate. There is probably far more chance of your valuable breeding mare/ stallion contracting hendra at a show like the EKKA if you take it there unvaccinated than there is of it experienciing fertility issues later down the track from the vaccine.

I really cannot beleive that there are people out there who would potentially expose so called precious valuable breeding stock to a high risk enviroment knowingly, by taking them to EKKA unvaccinated, when there is the availablity of a vaccine to protect them. If I was that certain my mare or stallion had a very high breeding value now or in the future, I would certainly not be taking that unvaccinated horse anywhere there is a high risk of it contracting a deadly virus- its pretty hard to bred with a dead horse.

I respect peoples choice to wait until the vaccine is declared safe, but what gives these people the right to put everybody else at risk ? If you dont want to vaccinate, then leave your horse at home, its still your choice, by asking the society to allow unvaccinated horses to the venue, you are asking them to put every person at the venue at unnessecary risk.

As for the exporting issue, lets face it, a very very small minorty of the show horse population is actually exported, and if I had a horse in that minority, I assume it would be worth quite allot of money, and therefore, I would still want to protect it from the risk of hendra, again, a dead horse cannot be exported, once its dead, it has zero value. I would certainly not be taking a horse of that value to any events where there was a risk of it contracting the virus in the first place, regardless of whether the show society allowed me to or not.
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  #122  
Old 05-03-13, 01:41 PM
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jeannie jeannie is offline
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Its neither here nor there whether I agree to disagree with you - we both are at separate ends of the scale on our "personal opinions" with regards to vaccination against hendra.

I will agree at this point in time that my risk assessment strategy does not have me scurring around vaccinating for hendra every single one of my horses so I can attend a yearly show. That itself would be mismanagement of my behalf to inject something into my horses without having the full significant scientific data and analysis to prove otherwise.
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  #123  
Old 05-03-13, 02:10 PM
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awetsawdustdemon awetsawdustdemon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeannie View Post
Its neither here nor there whether I agree to disagree with you - we both are at separate ends of the scale on our "personal opinions" with regards to vaccination against hendra.

I will agree at this point in time that my risk assessment strategy does not have me scurring around vaccinating for hendra every single one of my horses so I can attend a yearly show. That itself would be mismanagement of my behalf to inject something into my horses without having the full significant scientific data and analysis to prove otherwise.
You've entirely missed my point.

Never mind, I've said all I wanted to. All the best.
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  #124  
Old 05-03-13, 07:30 PM
Uno Uno is offline
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Thought I would just share this from a friends FB page. Hope this is ok mods.

Update from Dr David Lovell regarding the Hendra Virus Vaccine:

There certainly are a lot of very grave misconceptions out there regarding the Hendra vaccinations.

Yes, the Hendra vaccine is not yet registered for “open” use on horses. Arrival at that status will still take some considerable time, probably even yet another year or so The only reason that the vaccine has been released as it has been is because of emotive and constant demands by the horse industry for the authorities “to do something” to protect horses and humans from dying due to Hendra infection. I find it mind boggling, and very, very disappointing to see and hear the current outcry that has been going on since the vaccine was released. Yes, it has been released under “special permit”, only because of the pressure that was being placed on governments to do something. To do otherwise would mean a delay of possibly 3 – 5 years before final approval and registration could be achieved. How many more horses and people would die before that happened? A very large amount of testing has in fact been done up to this point. What is known, is that the vaccine is extremely effective. It provides a very, very high level of immunity and protection. Also, it is known that the vaccine is extremely safe. Over 20,000 doses have now been used and there have been reports of possibly a maximum of 50 instances of some reaction, and those have only been minor local reactions at the injection site. Who could possibly object? The only issue with breeding animals is that the trials have not been completed. The very nature of having to trail the dose on pregnant animals means that it will take many years to complete. That is all that it means. Before it can be approved officially and registered for breeding animals, the work has to be done. There would be absolutely no adverse effects on breeding as such. The only possible scenario for trouble could be giving the vaccine to a heavily pregnant mare. Every heavily pregnant mare has to treated with caution as they are so prone to miscarriage. The reality is that any managerial procedure should be avoided if possible in this category of horse.

Let’s get down to tin tacks. One of the main objections to the vaccine is cost. Yes it is a cost, and a not inconsiderable cost particularly for owners with larger numbers of horses. Production and development of any drug or vaccine involves an enormous outlay by the developers. Who is supposed to pay?. Surely the end user. It would appear that the horse owning public had expected the “government” to bear the cost. For what possible reason? No one could expect the pensioner in a retirement village, the unit dweller in the city, or any of the millions of tax paying citizens out there who have nothing to do with horses to subsidise the pleasure activities of the relatively small numbers in the population who choose to own horses. As you well know, a horse is an extremely expensive commodity to own or be paying up for. This is another cost, but the reality is that the cost of the vaccine, relative to all the other expenses involved in horse ownership, is only a small component. More to the point, what is the cost of not vaccinating. Your beloved pet dying, yourself dying, or worst of all, someone that you know, coming in contact with your horse, contracting the disease and dying. It can only be regarded as irresponsible for anyone choosing to own a horse, not to have it vaccinated.

Thankfully there is now an extremely effective mechanism for protecting horses and people for Hendra virus. The logical evolution in the soon to be foreseeable future, is that it will come to be regarded as negligence for a horse owner not to utilise available technology to protect themselves and those people around them, from the possibility of Hendra disease. This will apply in particular to employers involved in the horse industry. Workplace Health and Safety will dictate that all workers need to be protected. I cannot speak for the RNA as to the reasons for their decision, however, it would appear very logical that public liability would be very high on the list that may have been behind their thinking. Of all the horse events and functions, the Brisbane Show would have to be one that would be in the higher risk category. At this show, many horses are stabled on the grounds for an extended period of time, (up to 2 weeks as you know). The incubation period for Hendra disease in the horse is known to be up to 16 days, therefore a horse could be perfectly normal when brought to the precinct, but may have contacted a bat in the days or weeks prior to coming, and not become ill until having been on the grounds for some time. Imagine the fiasco. Hundreds of horses quarantined in those stables at the exhibition. That alone would be an unthinkable disaster, not to mention the horror of some human contracting the disease. This decision is a so called “no brainer”. In my opinion, they would be negligent not to insist that the now available unbelievably effective means of protection, not be a requirement. The horse industry should be lauding and congratulating them for their foresight, not whinging about the couple of hundred dollars that people who choose to own an already extremely expensive commodity, have to pay for protection. Rest assured, this form of thinking among event organisers, service providers, and anyone that has anything to do with the horse industry, will become the norm.

I could go on forever. We are being inundated with requests for comment, and what I have tried to do here is give you some general perceptions, and hopefully valid reasons as to why vaccination of horses against Hendra disease is essential. My comments are not meant to be specific or related to anyone in particular. I am merely attempting to “get a message across” Regards
David David K Lovell BVSc MACVSc
Redlands Veterinary Clinic
433 Boundary RdThornlands 4164
07 32077325
0419 748417
PS: Yes, the government did pay for the Equine Influenza vaccine. I suspect that this is where the public expectation has come form that they should also pay for Hendra. There can be absolutely no comparison between the two. Hendra disease is very rare. Yes, the personal costs to the unfortunate individual who experiences the disease are enormous, the overall cost to the community is negligible. The outbreak of EI that we did have in 2007 cost the economy hundreds of millions of dollars. Allowing the influenza virus to become established in the country would mean that these massive losses would go on and on forever. There was a very real public benefit in the government contributing to the control and remarkable eradication that occurred.
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  #125  
Old 05-03-13, 08:34 PM
Seahorse Seahorse is offline
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Some valid and very well presented comments above!

The moral, legal and Workplace, Health and Safety obligations are very influential.
Just a thought from a vets side and maybe something that the average owner is not aware of - veterinary employers and employees have huge obligations with WPH&S and Hendra virus.
The protocols are concrete and rigid and every employee who may have to deal with such has to receive training in PPE on a regular basis, the amount of paperwork to deal with is huge.... and if you do have a suspect case the time taken to deal with all after leaving the property is phenomenal with the handling and submitting of samples, clean down of self and equipment, disposal of clinical waste, speaking to the DPI, dealing with understandably very stressed owners and in contacts, documentation of events etc etc.... it doesn't all end as we get into our car and drive away!! We have shelves of PPE and sampling materials, files of information and guidelines and rigid training that we have to keep up to speed.

In fact dealing with it all is as stressful (probably more!) as dealing with the actual case!!

Then if it is positive... well then hang onto your hats for the roller coaster ride of bureaucracy and media involvement. And people wonder why some vets wont attend suspect cases - it is hugely draining on resources and is very stressful.... all having to be performed whilst you continue your day to day work!

Is it any wonder vets really are behind Hendra vaccination?
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  #126  
Old 05-03-13, 08:41 PM
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I personally would like to know more in regards to reactions at the injection site...short or long term swelling etc?
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  #127  
Old 05-03-13, 08:48 PM
Seahorse Seahorse is offline
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I have vaccinated about 200 horses... 1 had a small, mild swelling no larger than a 20cent piece that lasted for a few days. Not painful and no issues with infection. Resolved quickly with no issues.

My colleagues have had maybe 2 or 4 in total - same thing as above - no long term issue. We were being extra vigilant and asked for ANY swelling to be reported back to us.

The majority of horses had NO ISSUES... didn't even go off their feeds or have a quiet 24 hours post vaccinations

To be honest ... seemed to be less reaction with the Hendra vaccine than the Strangles which does cause the odd horse to swell at the site of injection.

Hopefully this answers your question.
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  #128  
Old 05-03-13, 09:30 PM
Passionfruit Passionfruit is offline
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Quote:
I should say was) the highlight time of the year for me to have the opportunity to give my "girls" (breeding mares) the fun day out and to let them realise they aren't just her on earth to "churn" out foals but that they can strut their stuff inside a show ring as well .
Is that a for real comment on why you show Jeannie? Do you honestly believe your horses think that? I don't believe horses have any such thought process. It does make me understand, to a very small degree, why you are against vaccination though.

I look for the logical reasons why it could impact breeding stock detrimentally. Comparing it with tetanus, strangles, herpes, salmonella vaccines, I can't see a lot of difference. As Seahorse said, this drug is not Equity.
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  #129  
Old 05-03-13, 09:56 PM
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Thanks seahorse :-)
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  #130  
Old 05-03-13, 10:13 PM
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Passionfruit , have you looked at the west Nile vaccine ?
Yes different but to me it's all relevant .
I not think you can say its as simple as a tetnus shot , maybe in 10 yrs we can all say that & I'd love to
But till all the study is completed & its proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that its safe for all breeding horses at all stages or they advise when not to give the shots etc many will be fence sitters .
I can choose to be because I don't live near bats but I can understand why others don't want to be forced into this .
I do truly hope for those living with this disease at their door that this vaccine is the miracle saviour .
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  #131  
Old 05-03-13, 10:49 PM
Passionfruit Passionfruit is offline
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I sure have Redbug. I looked very closely at it because of Fort Dodge as the manufacturer. Google Fort Dodge and heartworm for dogs for an interesting read. There are 4 different WNV injections. From a vaccine site discussion site:
"Pregnant mares:
Limited studies have been performed that examine vaccinal protection against WNV disease in pregnant mares. While none of the licensed vaccines are specifically labeled for administration to pregnant mares at this time, practitioners have vaccinated pregnant mares due to the risk of natural infection. It is an accepted practice by many veterinarians to administer WNV vaccines to pregnant mares as the risk of adverse consequences of WNV infection outweighs any reported adverse effects of use of vaccine."

A site on adverse reactions
http://rense.com/general39/uppd.htm

We give breeding stock the very best of care. Select exciting crosses and do the best we can to produce a healthy foal. What are the odds everything will go right? Probably not as high as we hope. Living in a Hendra area, quite frankly I would be vaccinating empty mares. One or more turn out barren. Same as they may be without the vaccine. I love horses but human life comes first. Read above. It will be years before this vaccine will be approved for breeding stock.
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  #132  
Old 06-03-13, 01:26 PM
Chainwire Chainwire is offline
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Wednesday, 6 March 2013


Following on from discussions late November, 2012, between the Queensland Horse Industry Alliance Inc (of which Equestrian Qld is a foundation member) and veterinary representatives, it has been decided from an industry perspective not to make any recommendation either for or against compulsory vaccination at this time.

This decision is based on industry concerns over the lack of data and associated information relating to the vaccine and potential side effects, along with the necessary timeframes related to the vaccination process.

As such, while Equestrian Qld and the Alliance will make every effort to ensure members and the industry are provided with access to all information and advances in relation to Hendra and the associated vaccine, we recommend to members that any decision they make in regard to vaccination is based on the information available and done so in consultation with their vet, on a case by case basis.

Equestrian Queensland Inc.
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  #133  
Old 06-03-13, 01:37 PM
Paliboi Paliboi is offline
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Eurabbie, I had my horse and my friends pony injected, neither of them had any reaction or swelling at all. The vet who administered it said she only had one or two horses all up show any kind of swelling and only then you really had to be looking for it.

When the vaccine first came out there was a thread on it and I think (could be wrong) that PNP had a pony that had a quite bad reaction, sincere apologies if I have the wrong person, baby brain The general reactions were very minimal if at all from memory (again tho, baby brain!)
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  #134  
Old 06-03-13, 02:07 PM
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Ponies4me Ponies4me is offline
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One of mine had a fairly impressive reaction following the second injection. It may have been related to the way it was given. Won't stop me from getting the boosters when they're due. Will just make sure that we have no comps at that time.
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  #135  
Old 06-03-13, 02:22 PM
Seahorse Seahorse is offline
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Injection site reactions - we are doing the second injection on the opposite side to the first in an attempt to reduce the chance of swelling.
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  #136  
Old 06-03-13, 02:38 PM
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FYI, Passionfruit, I'm not a "full time" showie unlike alot of people on here so to speak . I attend no more than probably 3 big Horse Shows a year (depending on my work schedule) as well as helping out and attending a selection of Miniature Horse and Pony Shows throughout the year as well. The EKKA holds a "TB Only Day" and it is this day of the year I have only been attending for the last 3yrs with my TB broodies and TB youngstock.
Perhaps if you bother to attend a TB Day at the EKKA or do a little bit more research as to how TB Day is run at the EKKA you will significantly notice that "our" day at the Ekka showgrounds is run completely different to other Breed Classes. For example:-
(a) We don't have days and days of having to stable of our horses - its a ONE DAY EVENT
(b) We are there from sometimes 5-6am and have to be off the grounds no later than 1-2pm so that the "Hackies" and 'Showjumpers" can do their classes.
(c) We are the only ones allowed/permitted to park our floats/trucks inside the arena and have our horses tied to the float/truck for the entire time we are at the grounds
(d) We are encouraged to bring our own water and food/hay nets for our horses
(e) The only other horses I've noticed at TB Day (other than other TB's) are the (2) mounted Clerks who are there to chase down any TB's that escape their tie up from the float or their handler etc.

I'm not comparing its entirety to any of the vaccines you have mentioned. If you read my post properly, you should have grasped that I'm one of those who prefers to sit back and wait for the hendra vaccination to be available on the open market....the vaccinations you mentioned are freely available on the open market bar Equity which I have never had to use - but you didnt grasp it unfortunately
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  #137  
Old 06-03-13, 02:48 PM
PippaLS PippaLS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainwire View Post
Wednesday, 6 March 2013


Following on from discussions late November, 2012, between the Queensland Horse Industry Alliance Inc (of which Equestrian Qld is a foundation member) and veterinary representatives, it has been decided from an industry perspective not to make any recommendation either for or against compulsory vaccination at this time.

This decision is based on industry concerns over the lack of data and associated information relating to the vaccine and potential side effects, along with the necessary timeframes related to the vaccination process.

As such, while Equestrian Qld and the Alliance will make every effort to ensure members and the industry are provided with access to all information and advances in relation to Hendra and the associated vaccine, we recommend to members that any decision they make in regard to vaccination is based on the information available and done so in consultation with their vet, on a case by case basis.

Equestrian Queensland Inc.
But does that include the ekka?
Isn't the rna a separate organisation to EQ and the horse alliance?
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  #138  
Old 06-03-13, 02:58 PM
Chainwire Chainwire is offline
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Also I have seen and read in social media some person who 'cannot be bothered ' reporting swellings to the administering veterinarian and one lady who's horse ended up in Horse Hospital after the first Vaccination (But the powers that be could not decide if it was related to the vaccine )

So how do we know if all the data is actual "fact" if those in the trial are not reporting as required ? and who regulates the decision as to if there was an adverse reaction that said react was caused by the Vaccine or something else


Comment from a user on QLD VET FB SITE -

We had 1 of 10 with localised swelling at injection site, that it now a hard lump that has not gone away. (I had not reported this to the attending vet) Still a very small price to pay,

Comment -Same site as above

Yep , I had a horse vacced and was very ill with in 48hrs , but hay you keep telling everyone that no horses got ill but I know different , it took 3weeks for him to just get well enough to eat and drink , he was at the vets for 5 days , and then I took him home and had to drip him everyday , bloods where done , the drug company was informed and the dpi did test and no one could say that it was or it wasn't the vacc , I'm not against the vacc as I did the 2 shots on my other horse , BUT IT DOES (Pee's) ME OFF THAT YOU SAY NO HORSES GOT SICK , RING ME I'LL TELL YA !!!!

Has to make you wonder
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  #139  
Old 06-03-13, 03:23 PM
callmesmith callmesmith is offline
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I had a horse react very badly to a strangles vaccine - five days of vet care. *shrugs* it happens. It doesn't mean it is a conspiracy.

The way I read the comment about the ill horse, it WAS reported, and no conclusive link could be drawn to the vaccine? Or is that a conspiracy, too?

Hands up anyone who has ever had a sick horse and no conclusive diagnosis?

I think the comments Chainwire has posted about people not reporting side effects is an excellent illustration why this is, and probably always will be, a vet-only vaccine.

I'm sure that someone more informed than I could comment on this, but I doubt the Hendra vaccine will ever be 'open market' if you mean you can buy it and inject it yourself. This isn't just a horse disease we are talking about. It is a highly deadly zoonotic disease.

From the comments posted further down, it could be many years before the vaccine is formally approved for use in breeding stock. If that is the case, it is going to be a long wait...I wonder how many horses and people will die unnecessarily in the meantime as people are sucked into the paranoia circulating on some of those pages. We've already had two horses die so far this year. Luckily no people were infected.

Sadly, it is likely breeding stock probably at most risk of getting this disease - usually broodies are kept in paddocks (usually with trees) and, if they are fed, it happens in the open.

Call me a sheeple, but I'm afraid I'll believe the vets and researchers and academics over the unsubstantiated comments of strangers on Facebook.
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  #140  
Old 06-03-13, 03:36 PM
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I see no reason why it shouldn't be open market once the trial phase is over, maybe they could make it only purchased through vets for recording/certification purposes but being a simple IM it's ridiculous to say that only vets should ever be able to administer it. Taking a vet visit out of the equation reduces costs signficantly which is sure to improve uptake over the long term.
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